[Homer]

I have recently checked the cost of EVGo electricity charges. The average is now about 0.50 per kilowatt. This is an average based on peak, off peak, and utilization charges. It may be higher or lower in some areas, but is is a number that seems to incorporate many of the variances by region and time.

Assuming that in the winter, there is a range of 180 miles in the XC40. And, assuming a 90% charge for that range, or about 70 kilowatts.

To recharge the car, when on the road would cost $35.00.

A car getting 30 MPG would need 6 gallons of gas at a current average of about $4.00. This would cost $24.00.

Granted, home charging is cheaper. But, if electric is the future and the infrastructure development is trending towards this type or charge costs, where is the purported financial benefit?

Anyone planning frequent trips that are outside the limited range would be forced to accept these costs.

I am not debating the environmental, ecological or geopolitical benefits of electric....just the oft quoted economic positives that don't seem to add up.

 

[brwtacoma]

I think the big point is at home vs on the road charging. In a year, I’ve only had to charge on the road maybe 3 times. At the peak of gas prices, my at home per mile charging cost was about 10-15% of what an equivalent gas car could have been. It’s probably closer to 20% now with gas prices down a bit. So even if I had to top off on the road more regularly, the significant savings at home more than offsets.

And as fast charging infrastructure improves, costs should go down. Right now the cost of the electricity is significantly marked up for the fast delivery. That should go down over time.

 

[WSUPolar]

So - completely dismiss a major financial benefit and argue that the finances don’t add up 👍

If we’re going to discuss costs at least bring up a legitimate one - such as the price premium you pay up front for BEV vs Petrol vs HEV and how long it will take to recoup the difference.

I drove almost 14,000 miles this year in my MachE and about 3,500 my wife’s C40 - I spent just under $125 on total “fuel” for the year. I can charge for free at work - so it can very easily add up.

 

[dan_a_w]

Hopefully this is helpful because that is my intent... We just did our second Portland to Bay Area (and back) trip in our '22 Recharge. We charged six times en route (each direction) at a cost of about $60 per 14 hour trip (this includes a free charging session at the Randolph Collier Rest Area north of Yreka (highly recommended)). I presume the fuel charge for 615 miles of driving would be more than $60.

 

[kgall005]

This is why my household has 1 EV, and one ICE car.. Choose the tool for the job and drive.. It maybe a hybrid would be best for some folks..

 

[Astus]

We are a two EV car household. Twin XC40 and Single C40. I charge at work for free and wife charges at home using zappi charger mostly utilising our excess solar power. Financially in AU these cars cost too much without incentives to break even on costs. The only reason we purchased them was so scratch an instant torque itch at the lights and because of the tax free novated leasing for EVs just introduced here which makes them the same cost as leasing a toyota camry, add the fuel savings onto this and you come out in front. We are also in australia where the climate in southern australia is pretty optimal for EVs most of the year so there is little reduction to range (I confirm this after our winter but it rarely gets to 0 celsius over night outside here in winter more likely a few degrees above and 8 -18 C for a winter day).

 

[Greg S]

We are a two EV car household. Twin XC40 and Single C40. I charge at work for free and wife charges at home using zappi charger mostly utilising our excess solar power. Financially in AU these cars cost too much without incentives to break even on costs. The only reason we purchased them was so scratch an instant torque itch at the lights and because of the tax free novated leasing for EVs just introduced here which makes them the same cost as leasing a toyota camry, add the fuel savings onto this and you come out in front. We are also in australia where the climate in southern australia is pretty optimal for EVs most of the year so there is little reduction to range (I confirm this after our winter but it rarely gets to 0 celsius over night outside here in winter more likely a few degrees above and 8 -18 C for a winter day).

EDIT: The following applies to Australia
We did the calculations for the fun of it when we bought our Recharge Twin...comparing like-for-like specifications, the EV was $12,000 more than the T5 R-design with all options (the Recharge Twin was only one specification - fully loaded). Given most of our charging is done at home using excess solar (6.5 cents per kWh feed-in tariff) or night off-peak (10 cents per kWh)...and the car gets about 22 kWh/100 km, charging cost (let's say it's averaging around 8 cents per kWh) for 15,000 km per year would be 3300 kWh x $0.08 = $264. The petrol XC40 T5 would probably average 10 litres/100 km @$2 per litre (premium fuel) would be 1500 litres x $2 = $3000....so using those figures we're saving $2736 per year...so payback period (NOT INCLUDING MAINTENANCE SAVINGS vs. the petrol version) would be 4.4 years. Of course if you use DC fast chargers exclusively at the top rate of $0.60 per kWh (which nobody would!) the yearly charge cost would jump to 3300 kWh x $0.6 =$1980...still a 34% savings vs. the petrol car...but the payback period (again, not including maintenance) jumps up to nearly 12 years. Fun with data.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Winter highway driving is basically a worst case scenario for an EV, while highway driving is a best case for fuel economy and temperature has a lot less effect. To be honest, I wouldn't get an EV for frequent highway driving. I will say that here in the bay area, our ICE vehicle that runs on premium gas gets about 20 MPG (we just did a road trip where we averaged 30 MPG throughout; the hills and traffic make a huge difference!) and premium gas here is still more like $5 per gallon or even more. We used to drive that car about 200 miles per week, so $50 per week of driving. With the new XC40 recharge, thanks to a bunch of free charging options around us I've been paying about $5 for charging every week for 200 miles driven. Off-peak electricity is about $0.25 per kW here so even if I did all my charging at home it'd be $17.50 or so; hooray for $12 a week of free juice! $50 vs $5 per week is clearly significant, and yeah there's a lot going on there that favors the EV in this scenario but that's also basically why I got one.

Meanwhile, we're only driving the ICE car 100 miles per week now, so that's $25 saved on top of it all. Suddenly we're down from $50 to $30 per week even with an extra 100 miles driven. Hooray!

 

[Stephen Cerruti]

TL;DR

1. Thumbs up for charging at home to maximize savings
2. EVgo is more expensive because they sell electricity from the power company
3. Other networks generate their own power and are cheaper
4. Electric prices in either case are more stable
5. Selling DCFC equipment without renewable generation is bad

fast charging infrastructure improves, costs should go down

I just did a quick check of EVgo, we don't use them because they are the highest priced DCFC network.

Their prices represent only a small bump over electric rates in my area. I do not think EVgo will see a decline in prices. Their prices during peak times are double what nearby Electrify America chargers would be charging.

So why is some DCFC cheaper? Companies like Electrify America and EVCS build out or source enough renewable power generation to equal what they sell. They only need to cover their efficiency loss from storage and transmission and the costs of building out their network including generation. The electricity itself is technically free.



EVCS has an 'all you can charge' plan that makes use of this model.

What the original poster does catch is that prices for electricity tend to be more stable than prices for gas. While gas shoots up and reluctantly falls as countries invade each other, electric prices tend to show more gradual changes due to regulation. This, in itself, is gold for anyone trying to budget for lots of miles traveled.

This is also why ChargePoint's model is bad for drivers. Selling chargers and letting customers set the price means that many chargers are pegged to commercial power costs and do not use self generated renewable energy.

 

[cdmoore125]

So why is some DCFC cheaper? Companies like Electrify America and EVCS build out or source enough renewable power generation to equal what they sell. They only need to cover their efficiency loss from storage and transmission and the costs of building out their network including generation. The electricity itself is technically free.

This is also why ChargePoint's model is bad for drivers. Selling chargers and letting customers set the price means that many chargers are pegged to commercial power costs and do not use self generated renewable energy.

I work in the electricity supply industry. Can you point me to what leads you to thinking EA and EVCS build or source their power gen? I think many of these companies (e.g. Tesla when they first started) don't understand how EV charging is affected by the tariffs. The distribution rates from the utilities alone is killer.

 

[XC90_Dinosaur]

It is doesn't matter how much someone is trying to compare ICE vs EV. The major factor here is the politics and the policies. Unfortunately they are trending artificially to inflate fuel prices so EV becomes more attractive. Proof - Beautiful British Columbia. In other words - depends on the locality. In Alberta for example the extra cost of EV is hardly justified.

 

[Stephen Cerruti]

I work in the electricity supply industry. Can you point me to what leads you to thinking EA and EVCS build or source their power gen? I think many of these companies (e.g. Tesla when they first started) don't understand how EV charging is affected by the tariffs. The distribution rates from the utilities alone is killer.

"EVCS contracts with its various clean energy suppliers and REC partners (renewable energy certificate) to ensure each gigawatt-hour delivered on a fast-charging network financially supports a renewable energy generator in the U.S." EVCS Fast Charging Network to Use 100% Renewable Energy (Newsire)

Electrify America
Current: "Today when you charge with us, the energy delivered from our network is backed by 100% renewable energy via renewable energy certificates."
Planned: "We’re rethinking the power that fuels us by revamping the way we charge. With our first solar farm in Southern California, we’re supporting the key sustainability goal of additionality to create brand new renewable energy. Once operational in 2023, the farm’s annual renewable energy is projected to offset the energy we currently deliver to drivers on an annualized basis across our entire public charging network."

Renewable Energy & Sustainability | Electrify America

Electrify America invests in renewable energy solutions like solar EV chargers in our effort to lower our energy-related emissions overall and improve your EV charging experience.

www.electrifyamerica.com

In addition "Electrify America, the nation’s largest public ultra-fast charging network, has officially added 30 solar-powered electric vehicle (EV) charging stations with two Level 2 chargers each to its network in the state of California. The off-grid, standalone chargers are strategically located throughout the Central Valley and inland areas of Southern California, intended to provide greater access to sustainable EV charging for drivers in rural parts of the state."

And possibly most significant, "Electrify America recently unveiled its first application of a megawatt-level battery energy storage system (BESS) for electric vehicle (EV) charging stations, building upon the company’s existing BESS installations at over 150 stations across the U.S., including more than 100 installations in California.

The megawatt-level energy storage system combined with a solar canopy goes a step further than Electrify America’s existing BESS in managing energy costs and reducing stress on the grid by acting as a buffer to supplement power to charging stations when local utilities limit the amount of power a station can draw from the grid. "

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

It is doesn't matter how much someone is trying to compare ICE vs EV. The major factor here is the politics and the policies. Unfortunately they are trending artificially to inflate fuel prices so EV becomes more attractive. Proof - Beautiful British Columbia. In other words - depends on the locality. In Alberta for example the extra cost of EV is hardly justified.

Policy, politics, and the gas companies themselves all surely play a role, definitely agree. Fluctuation of energy prices can never be fully explained by a single reason whether it's supply and demand, tax policy, or corporate profits - it's all three and then more and varies by locale. I think that's the point, though - making a blanket statement of "EVs save money" or "EVs cost too much" is just way too broad. How you drive, where you live, changing costs, availability of free charging, etc etc etc all play key factors.

 

[bdalameda]

The biggest surprise the EV drivers are going to get is that as EV use grows the infrastructure has to as well and that costs a lot. Just in California the energy requirements needed to support the goal of EV usage by 2035 will require the equivalent of 10 new nuclear power plants. The off peak rates will go away as everyone will need to recharge in these hours that will effectively negate off peak hours. This can't be made up by solar and wind as there is not enough land available for either to satisfy this demand. It is when the government runs out of other people's money to offset the costs of EV and infrastructure that the SH*T is going to hit the fan and EV owners are going to get a really big surprise with skyrocketing costs. This has nothing to do with power outages, blackouts and forced brown outs and natural disasters that will cause issues with EV's. Just my opinion.
When a technology can stand on its own without having to artificially make it work by forcing another technology out of existence by over-regulation and cost increases along with adding public money to support the new technology with tax and rebate incentives which in large part are made with tax money taken out of everyone's pocket. Then the technology has matured and will be successful. Until this point is reached the EV market is just a burden on every tax paying American. I will be the first person in line to buy an EV when the technology is practical for my purposes. There are situations where EV's work fine, my son has one and he has a very large solar array and owns a farm where he has room for it. Not many people have this capability.

 

[cdmoore125]

^^^ is right. I am not going to try to detract further as I think EVs absolutely are needed. I just want people to temper their financial expectations that they save a ton of explicit in my pocket money. They will not. They may now, but they won't in the future, especially the way tariffs are currently designed. Even in EV friendly Cali, it isn't possible long term. EVs are the right call in the longer term for many reasons, but if you are making a financial bet for the long term, I don't think that is a smart move.

 

[XC90_Dinosaur]

Further - Spoke few days ago with close friend from Newcastle UK. The city will charge 12 pounds for cars older than 2018 or 2017 (can`t remember exactly) to enter downtown. EV goes free by what he explained to me.
My forecasts in next 5-10 years - one EV for commuting and one ICE or Hybrid for travelling will make more sense. EVs need to have minimum 700km of range to get rid of that range anxiety and reliable infrastructure (chargers). Second - until they find way to put electricity into a jerrycans ICE/Hybrid will always have that advantage and it is big one for handful amount of people.

 

[Stephen Cerruti]

This was a spreadsheet I made a couple of years ago. If compared a gas XC40 to an electric XC40 over a range of fuel prices and charging rates.

Cost to Operate

Sheet1 City,Highway T5 Momentum,22,30,MPG P8 ,396,468,Wh/M Miles Driven,100 Gas Price (G),City,Highway,Elec Price (kWh),City,Highway $2.70,$12.27,$0.31,$9.00,$0.26,LA,$0.08,$3.17,$3.74 $2.90,$13.18,$0.33,$9.67,$0.28,$0.14,$5.54,$6.55 $3.10,$14.09,$0.36,$10.33,$0.30,$0.20,$7.92,$9.36 $3.30,$15.00...

docs.google.com

You can clearly see that there is a lot of overlap based on where you charge. You can make a copy and update or localize values. The 100 miles was picked because that is my daily commute so it factored into TCO and offset the higher up front costs.

 

[Astus]

The biggest surprise the EV drivers are going to get is that as EV use grows the infrastructure has to as well and that costs a lot. Just in California the energy requirements needed to support the goal of EV usage by 2035 will require the equivalent of 10 new nuclear power plants. The off peak rates will go away as everyone will need to recharge in these hours that will effectively negate off peak hours. This can't be made up by solar and wind as there is not enough land available for either to satisfy this demand. It is when the government runs out of other people's money to offset the costs of EV and infrastructure that the SH*T is going to hit the fan and EV owners are going to get a really big surprise with skyrocketing costs. This has nothing to do with power outages, blackouts and forced brown outs and natural disasters that will cause issues with EV's. Just my opinion.
When a technology can stand on its own without having to artificially make it work by forcing another technology out of existence by over-regulation and cost increases along with adding public money to support the new technology with tax and rebate incentives which in large part are made with tax money taken out of everyone's pocket. Then the technology has matured and will be successful. Until this point is reached the EV market is just a burden on every tax paying American. I will be the first person in line to buy an EV when the technology is practical for my purposes. There are situations where EV's work fine, my son has one and he has a very large solar array and owns a farm where he has room for it. Not many people have this capability.

no power also means no gas, electricity is used to pump it into your car so unless you are storing you own gas thats a mute point. While I agree that wind and solar power cannot charge up EVs if everyone has one, well they don’t. People are not all going to go out on a certain date and drive out of a showroom with a new EV causing an all of the sudden huge power demand let alone all charge at the same time. So the 10 nuclear power plants you are talking about is likely from research from oil barons holding on. Californian government sounds as stupid as my state government in victoria in that they are on a green bender without any actual ability to deliver on targets let alone any sensible knowledge of the technologies and capacities they are talking about. Also OPEC is actively trying to reduce oil outputs to increase the price of gas because they know that the gig is up and the transition is on so Gas prices will go up and up and stupid governments will tax fossil cars out of existence on green drinking benders. Plan your transition now and plane carefully.

 

[Astus]

The biggest surprise the EV drivers are going to get is that as EV use grows the infrastructure has to as well and that costs a lot. Just in California the energy requirements needed to support the goal of EV usage by 2035 will require the equivalent of 10 new nuclear power plants. The off peak rates will go away as everyone will need to recharge in these hours that will effectively negate off peak hours. This can't be made up by solar and wind as there is not enough land available for either to satisfy this demand. It is when the government runs out of other people's money to offset the costs of EV and infrastructure that the SH*T is going to hit the fan and EV owners are going to get a really big surprise with skyrocketing costs. This has nothing to do with power outages, blackouts and forced brown outs and natural disasters that will cause issues with EV's. Just my opinion.
When a technology can stand on its own without having to artificially make it work by forcing another technology out of existence by over-regulation and cost increases along with adding public money to support the new technology with tax and rebate incentives which in large part are made with tax money taken out of everyone's pocket. Then the technology has matured and will be successful. Until this point is reached the EV market is just a burden on every tax paying American. I will be the first person in line to buy an EV when the technology is practical for my purposes. There are situations where EV's work fine, my son has one and he has a very large solar array and owns a farm where he has room for it. Not many people have this capability.

Why are you peddling your narrative on this forum, it is for owners of XC40 recharges please go to your fossil forums

 

[Astus]

Further - Spoke few days ago with close friend from Newcastle UK. The city will charge 12 pounds for cars older than 2018 or 2017 (can`t remember exactly) to enter downtown. EV goes free by what he explained to me.
My forecasts in next 5-10 years - one EV for commuting and one ICE or Hybrid for travelling will make more sense. EVs need to have minimum 700km of range to get rid of that range anxiety and reliable infrastructure (chargers). Second - until they find way to put electricity into a jerrycans ICE/Hybrid will always have that advantage and it is big one for handful amount of people.

Why is it that the range is never enough. 700km **** that a big range. Personally I never sit in a car for any more than two hours so stopping for a 15min top up Sh&t and a coffee is not a problem. The only thing that needs to catch up is the infrastructure. Many governments are now actively working on this along with private companies as they see opportunity. A 7ookm battery is a very heavy one and does not make for an efficient EV. Research I seen the other day indicates that there is not enough battery capacity to get anywhere near the targets set by governments accessible now or five years down the track and the best way to solve it is for smaller battery range cars that are efficient but charge really fast so it will be a 5 min stop to top up another 150km and you are on your way again. That way more EVs can get on the road. This requires a change in thinking and yet again more infrastructure.