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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I researched, here is what I found:


Regarding the second article, this was written by a political action non-profit funded by oil companies who have a financial interest in slowing the inevitable switch to electric vehicles. Institute for Energy Research - DeSmog

That leaves us with your first article. This article has a lot of good information, but if you read carefully it doesn't come out and make any statements about whether the life cycle of EVs is cleaner or dirtier than ICE (spoiler: EVs are cleaner.) Instead it uses a type of sensationalism where it poses a question and then throws a lot of facts that don't actually answer that question.

Here is a much better article on the state of the lithium mining industry: The new 'gold rush' for green lithium

Here is a reputable article on Redwood, a startup focused on the recycling issue: Tesla Cofounder’s Battery Recycling Startup Ties Up With Top U.S. E-Waste Processor

Here are the questions you should be asking:
  • Is an electric vehicle produced today cleaner over its entire life including manufacturing and disposal than an equivalent ICE vehicle?
  • Do electric vehicles or ICE vehicles offer the best path towards stopping or slowing climate change?
  • Can we get to cleanly produced electric vehicles without selling existing technology to consumers?
  • Do consumers currently have more environmentally friendly options?
I believe that when you research these questions the answer is clear.

764

Yes, we should absolutely be concerned about lithium mining, however EV manufactures are very aware that their most vocal customers are buying EVs in part for environmental reasons and are already taking action to address these concerns.
 

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Presently less than 5% of lithium car batteries are recycled. Though batteries can be recycled they are not being recycled as the economics are simply not there to make it viable. The other major mining issues with cobalt, graphite etc. are not being talked about. It is simply not just a lithium issue. I would like to see the electric EV become a success and it may be successful in the future but only when the battery technology improves. There are some possible real breakthroughs coming in the next 5 years. As most people now know the greenhouse gas issues are proven to be just a front for activism. The real environmental issues are mining and destruction, of wilderness and water supply, water quality and pollution. The real elephant in the room is the inability to generate enough electricity to support an electric vehicle world. Solar and wind won't get us there. Nuclear would help but no one want to invest in nuclear. Oil coal and gas fired energy are not being supported. How is this supply issue of electric capacity going to be addressed? Most of the EV companies are advertising fluff about how green the EV's are as it is in there best interest to do so and their marketing depts. put out all kinds of sunny predictions about recycling etc., but when you dig into it you will find hat they are painting a far more rosie picture that the reality of the situation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Presently less than 5% of lithium car batteries are recycled.
I can see how you could be confused by this. First of all the typical lifespan of an EV battery is 8 to 10 years minimum. The vast majority of EV batteries have been produced in that time window meaning only a small percentage are currently not in use.

Secondly the demand for EV batteries for reuse rather than recycling is incredibly high. Though the efficiency of the batteries is reduced they are still very useful for other applications like home backup. The demand for home energy storage due to increasing uncertainty from climate change as demonstrated by wildfires in California and Australia and the blackouts in Texas means that EV batteries have significant opportunity for reuse before recycling which is a good thing.

I think you are correct to be concerned about Li-ion battery recycling because it's a huge issue for consumer electronics. But if we will return to the basic premise, if not EVs what solution are you proposing that is better to help us slow global temperature rise due to man made climate change?

 

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I can see how you could be confused by this. First of all the typical lifespan of an EV battery is 8 to 10 years minimum. The vast majority of EV batteries have been produced in that time window meaning only a small percentage are currently not in use.

Secondly the demand for EV batteries for reuse rather than recycling is incredibly high. Though the efficiency of the batteries is reduced they are still very useful for other applications like home backup. The demand for home energy storage due to increasing uncertainty from climate change as demonstrated by wildfires in California and Australia and the blackouts in Texas means that EV batteries have significant opportunity for reuse before recycling which is a good thing.

I think you are correct to be concerned about Li-ion battery recycling because it's a huge issue for consumer electronics. But if we will return to the basic premise, if not EVs what solution are you proposing that is better to help us slow global temperature rise due to man made climate change?

I don't propose any solution to slow global temperature rise as there is nothing that can be done to prevent it. Climate change has nothing to do with fossil fuels and everything to do with normal climate fluctuations. The climate has heated and cooled on the earth for eons and fossil fuels had nothing to do with it. The problem with climate change and global temperature rise theory is that the topic has become a political identity for some people and an honest and truthful analysis cannot be accomplished. When you look at most of the major supporters of these theories, it becomes apparent that they have a vested financial interest in making sure that the concerns over the climate continue on, and they are rewarded by large grants to keep their research funded. If you took the financial gain out of the debate, many of these climate change advocates would disappear. The hysteria over this is simply amazing to me. The EV marketing departments have attached themselves to this viewpoint and made owning an EV a calling card for cultural acceptance into this groupthink. Do you think for one minute these companies are not exploiting the fears and beliefs that people have to sell their cars or products? I always ask people what the correct climate is supposed to be. Seriously, is the climate correct now, or fifty years ago, or a million years ago? What is right, the right climate. The climate is not a static thing. You cannot stop climate change or slow it, it is just a fact. What I support is being a good steward of the environment by keeping water clean, making sure the wilderness is kept pristine for wildlife, and all people to enjoy, and I generally use common sense on making decisions about how I live. I don't immediately buy into the popular culture belief system and I go out of my way to research all views. Most times the people that make the most sense don't have any vested interest or agenda, when they speak about things such as the climate. So many cultures have force fed the climate belief system into people in school and in the public eye, that truly rational thought is lost on a good portion of our population. People just can't see beyond the supposed facts that have been spoon fed to them for years. It is hard to make the effort to see real truth and be willing to set aside these programmed belief systems. I find it interesting that people who support the human caused climate change theory get all their information from people and organizations that only support this theory and refuse to consider anything else. People need to be objective and not make their identity part of their belief system, as this only turns a persons viewpoint into something that needs to be protected to survive. This destroys any rational and truthful reflection on reality.
 

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...Climate change has nothing to do with fossil fuels and everything to do with normal climate fluctuations. ... I find it interesting that people who support the human caused climate change theory get all their information from people and organizations that only support this theory and refuse to consider anything else...
I'm getting my information from the 97% of climate scientists who believe that most of the recent global temperature rise has been largely driven by human activity. Are you one of the 3% of climate scientists who disagree? If so, it's good to hear your viewpoint too.
 

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I try not to respond to climate change trolls who plead the case that denies overwhelming evidence that global warming is caused by human pollution. So, I will not respond.

Let's stick to the topic.

and, it is noted that bdalameda has migrated from the XC40 ICE forum to provide theoretical balderdash. He is not an owner of a recharge.
 

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Agree~ let's stick to the topic.
I never tried DC charger yet, but hope to test before I go to the long trip. Let me try it today.
 

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No luck meaning it completely failed ?

Did you call them? Often calling makes things work that do not work when you just plug in!!! Why everything has a number in it to call 24:7.

And there should probably be a sticker saying “not ready for Prime time”
 

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No luck meaning it completely failed ?

Did you call them? Often calling makes things work that do not work when you just plug in!!! Why everything has a number in it to call 24:7.

And there should probably be a sticker saying “not ready for Prime time”
Ah.... When I tried, all of my family were in the car. So didn't want to spend too much time to charging.
 

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I try not to respond to climate change trolls who plead the case that denies overwhelming evidence that global warming is caused by human pollution. So, I will not respond.

Let's stick to the topic.

and, it is noted that bdalameda has migrated from the XC40 ICE forum to provide theoretical balderdash. He is not an owner of a recharge.
I guess I am not elite enough, because I chose not to buy the EV XC40, to post here. I'm not buying into the hysteria. That's fine.

Related to this lack of nuance, and the appeal to an exaggerated consensus, is the oft-repeated claim that “97 percent of climate scientists agree” on the state of human-generated climate change. Physicist-turned-economist David Friedman (among others) has investigated the methods used to generate such claims, and finds that they are seriously lacking.
Using the very data (on abstracts from published papers) that forms the basis of these headline announcements, Friedman reckons that more like 1.6 percent of the surveyed papers explicitly endorse humans as the main cause of global warming since the 1800s. Friedman further argues that this confusion — where the actual findings of the paper ended up being misinterpreted by the media — appears to have been deliberately produced by the survey’s authors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
I, for one, @bdalameda am glad you are here to discuss the pros and cons and am ready to proceed on why the P8 is (or will be) the better vehicle without regard to climate change.

1) The P8 is more performant than the ICE versions:
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volvo/xc40/2021/2021-volvo-xc40-recharge-awd-p8-2021-xc40-awd-t5-comparison-test-review/ said:
POWER (SAE NET)402 hp (comb)248 hp @ 5,500 rpm
TORQUE (SAE NET)486 lb-ft (comb)258 lb-ft @ 1,800 rpm
REDLINE6,000 rpm
WEIGHT TO POWER11.8 lb/hp15.4 lb/hp
2) In average daily use the P8 is MORE convenient. The average daily distance driven by American's is 26 miles. This distance is easily recovered by charging overnight.

3) The P8 is a more pleasant vehicle. The main factor is a reduction in the noise, but additional factors include reduction in brake dust and vehicle fluids like motor and transmission oils. You don't need to stop at gas stations and most people can charge at home.

4) The P8 requires significantly less maintenance, no oil changes, longer time between brake service. This reduced maintenance contributes to lower operating costs (which I've included separately) but also to the convenience aspect.

5) The P8 costs less to operate and that cost is more predictable. Fuel costs vary constantly. This impacts gasoline more than it does electricity generation because of the means of delivery. California even has seasonal differences in fuel costs. In addition the P8 can be fueled from power generated at home. With the addition of solar an owner can completely eliminate fuel costs. While not everyone can take advantage of it, solar is more practical for more drivers than owning an oil well/refinery. While it's hard to put a single figure on cost savings we can review the literature and significant savings on operating costs.

6) As disappointed as I am with the current state of the infotainment system I believe that in the long term purchasing a vehicle with Android Automotive versus Sense is an advantage. Here only time will tell. I can tell you that my wife had to drive a loaner for the week and complained about the loss of voice recognition but I believe this is more about switching than one being preferable.

Does that mean the P8 is the best choice for everybody?

No, of course not. If you can't or won't charge at home that would be a red flag for me. If you drive long distances daily or regularly make long distance trips then possibly a ICE XC40 may suit your needs better. If you can't take advantage of the tax credit then I think financially you may be taking a hit with the P8.

That being said my wife drives 90+ miles per day without issue and without a level 2 home charger installed yet (my fault.) Even with expensive public charging she is saving money on transportation costs by augmenting with level 1 charging at home. She no longer has to visit gas stations (which have been a thorn in our side because of credit card fraud.)

There are things that tip the scale in favor of the P8 that will eventually go away. The $7,500 tax credit is one of those things. If you can take advantage of that credit you can offset the potential loss of resale value that would erase much or all of the cost saving potential. But this post is about today and about the typical XC40 buyer and therefore I believe the typical XC40 buyer would be better off in a P8.

My final thoughts:

The P8 is a wonderful thing, it's also the latest new and shiny thing. If you like owning the latest, most advanced piece of technology then it is a no brainer. The P8 is a better choice than an ICE XC40.
 

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Let’s please keep the conversation to the cars. Fair points to discuss why an individual was motivated to buy an EV, etc, but use your restraint when feeling tempted to argue about climate politics here. Goodness knows there’s already enough political bickering in the world to fuel an entire fleet of vehicles. We can leave this forum be about something more fun. Thanks!
 

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Please let us know how you liked the P8 for your big trip - charging, ergonomics, features, whatever you think worth noting!
Tomorrow's trip will be the interesting bit, 300 miles each way from Cleveland, Ohio to Hedgesville, West Virginia. Mainly because the first stop is an EA charger that --should not-- work (based on brand). I'll test it though and see how that goes. We'll need to charge 3 times total, the last one is ~25mi from destination so we may only need to charge there in one of the two directions.

I'll be sure to get my wife's feedback, aggregate it with mine, and reply here. I'm not yet 100% sure how the drive 500+ miles (each way) to Tennessee is going to work out, because of the need for the EA chargers that are incompatible. That said, last night I looked at a Porsche Taycan for myself (the XC40 is my wife's SUV). They have a demo/loaner RWD Taycan that carries a compelling discount (plus tax credit). If acquired, we'd probably use that for the bigger trip (it has the same "pilot assist" type hardware, and goes 250+ miles and charges up to 270kW DC fast and has no EA issues).

Stay tuned...
 

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Tomorrow's trip will be the interesting bit, 300 miles each way from Cleveland, Ohio to Hedgesville, West Virginia. Mainly because the first stop is an EA charger that --should not-- work (based on brand). I'll test it though and see how that goes. We'll need to charge 3 times total, the last one is ~25mi from destination so we may only need to charge there in one of the two directions.

I'll be sure to get my wife's feedback, aggregate it with mine, and reply here. I'm not yet 100% sure how the drive 500+ miles (each way) to Tennessee is going to work out, because of the need for the EA chargers that are incompatible. That said, last night I looked at a Porsche Taycan for myself (the XC40 is my wife's SUV). They have a demo/loaner RWD Taycan that carries a compelling discount (plus tax credit). If acquired, we'd probably use that for the bigger trip (it has the same "pilot assist" type hardware, and goes 250+ miles and charges up to 270kW DC fast and has no EA issues).

Stay tuned...
Most of the EA network should okay, except one machine type. I failed to charging with 'Signet' charger. But I was able to charge with other charger - forgot which company one.
Hope you have luck not to use Signet charger.
 

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Most of the EA network should okay, except one machine type. I failed to charging with 'Signet' charger. But I was able to charge with other charger - forgot which company one.
Hope you have luck not to use Signet charger.
If you scroll back to read my prior posts you'll see why this is an issue for me. Not sure where you live (I see what appears to be a USA flag but no city/state listed) -- I am in Cleveland, Ohio. 99% of the chargers near here are SIGNET, which means ALL of those will fail. I've had EVs for over a decade, including a Porsche Taycan, Audi eTron SUV etc -- so I have experience with 50kW and 150kW and 350kW DC fast chargers around the "Great Lakes/Midwest" region, as well as Tesla Superchargers.

For example:
Our trip tomorrow, there are 2x EA chargers (150-350kW) in the Pittsburgh PA area we will pass. One is SIGNET the other is not. I'll stop at both, because I want to "test" the SIGNET charger. But based on past experiences with the XC40 over last few weeks, I have a 50% sense of it working. We'll see.

But as another example:
End of June we have a 500+ mile (each way) trip down to Gatlinburg TN. There are ~7 chargers on the way, of which ALL of them are SIGNET (save for one). So that means 95% of the chargers probably wont work.

Again, I'm fully aware that SIGNET chargers are the only ones that don't work -- this has been stated in my prior replies. But sadly, for my location, MOST of the nearby chargers are SIGNETs. This is very upsetting to have bought (leased) a $60k car that has ample charging for our trips (range isnt great, efficiency isnt great, but its "feasible") -- but, if the EA/SIGNET combo chargers dont work, it makes our car completely unable to make the drive. (We cannot turn a 10 hour drive in a 3 day trip, that would be only way at Level 2, but that is not a reasonable option).

PS: We can make the trip tomorrow heading EAST without needing to use SIGNET chargers (but I'll stop/test one along way). We sadly can NOT make the trip SOUTH to TN in a few weeks because there are spots where there are NO DC chargers EXCEPT for SIGNET EA units -- hence the problem for me :(
 
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